What started out as an interview with the truly amazing Faith Pincus turned into a handbook for continuing legal education (CLE) presenters and entrepreneurs. Faith is a dynamic, accomplished and experienced speaker who will boost your self-confidence and give you the tools you need to succeed at public speaking.
She practices what she preaches, openly and generously providing meaningful insight, sharing ideas and raising questions. Her story, which many will recognize and relate to, is affirming.
Faith is a teacher and she has taught me much during this interview process.
Studies have shown that fear of public speaking is on par with the fear of death. How did you overcome this?
I overcame it by speaking a lot. For the majority of people, the more you speak, the less you are afraid. And also, the more you prepare and practice, the less you are afraid. I was afraid, at first, in college and when I first started speaking when I ran political campaigns, many many years ago. But the more I did it, and the more positive feedback I received from my audience afterwards, the less afraid I became. I still have fear some days. Almost everyone on the planet is afraid of making a fool of themselves. The first time I spoke in undergrad I almost cried I was so afraid.
How did you become the dynamic speaker that you are today?
Thanks. Speaking well takes a few things: 1) being organized; 2) being engaging; 3) having energy (or faking it); and 4) being prepared. I suppose some people would call me “a natural” when it comes to my delivery style due to my personality, but I still have to prepare and be organized. Think of all the speakers you have seen that are engaging, but ruminate, wander, and/or say nothing. That is not an effective speaker, no matter how charming they might be.
You teach the teachers. How do you make presenters better?
Ohhhh… I can go on forever here! First I try to make them watch my video before our first coaching session – but sometimes that is like pulling teeth! So next I video tape them speaking and make them watch their video. Honestly, it’s a lot easier to watch me speak about how to be a better speaker than it is to watch yourself speak. My coaching clients almost always promise to watch my video afterwards. LOL! Seriously – I make my coaching clients practice, in front of me and my camera(s) and microphones, and then I discuss the things that need work and the things that they do really well.
I work with my clients (and some times my CLE speakers) to focus their ideas into messages that are communicated easily and I give them ideas about how to improve their delivery. Then they do it again, and again, and again. And again, and again, and again. I usually coach people in 2 hour sessions, at least 3 sessions, but sometimes more depending on how many upcoming speaking engagements/court dates are planned.
I usually have my clients show me what they plan to wear at the upcoming speaking event/court date so I can make sure they have made the right call. This sounds basic, but a lot of attorneys need a reminder and a lot of young attorneys need to be taught skills related to appearance and presence.
How did Pincus Professional Education come about and what’s happening there?
I clerked for a Federal Court Judge and saw a lot, and I do mean a lot, of attorneys make simple mistakes that hurt their case and their credibility. Plus we (court staff and judges) all found it annoying – mistakes by attorneys add time to the court’s workload – sometimes a lot. When I went to work at a large downtown law firm as a litigator I realized that law school hadn’t prepared me for litigation. Clerking helped a lot, but there were still basic practical/procedural things I didn’t know. That’s when the idea for practical seminars started brewing.
After a while I decided litigation just wasn’t for me. I thought about returning to public speaking and public speaking coaching, which I have done since 1988 believe it or not. Then one day the idea for this business formed while I was listening to two colleagues do a firm-wide presentation comparing the practical/procedural differences they experienced when litigating two recent cases in state and federal court (they are still good friends of mine). That’s when I decided to create Pincus Professional Education – a CLE business that focused on delivering practical content instead of case law updates.
Originally I called it Law Clerk Seminars – because I was having federal law clerks teach the first few courses – but that was a disaster. Everyone thought it was a program for law clerks to attend. I changed the name immediately! In 2005 I was by myself and I put on two seminars in four cities: Federal Court Boot Camp and Public Speaking for attorneys. Last year we put on approximately 48 seminars in three states and now I have a small but dedicated and fantastic staff.
I am also adding a whole host of webinars this year – that’s new for me. I used to only do a few a year, but due to the economy I’ve seen an uptick in webinar registrations and a corresponding downturn in in-person attendance. Many of my programs are in the fourth, fifth and sixth annual generation. Sonya, my fabulous executive assistant, is busy taking registrations, filling Home Study course orders, answering questions, granting scholarships and generally making our customers happy (and keeping me on track thank goodness).
I also teach our public speaking for attorneys program, but that is only one of many CLE seminars. Most of our programs are taught by state court staff attorneys (trial and appellate), law clerks for federal judges, judges and attorneys with excellent reputations in their fields. The majority of our programs currently focus on litigation, at the federal and state level, trial and appellate. We will eventually move into contracts and corporate law, again focusing on the practical. We also have a bunch of career and law practice management related programs, such as setting your fees, impression management and my public speaking course, of course. J
CLE Providers proliferate, from a single presenter to large entities. How is Pincus Professional Education different?
At the risk of giving up info to my competition, I’ll say that we’re different in several critical ways:
1) I hand select our speakers, usually based upon referrals from people I trust, including current and past Pincus Professional Education speakers. This means I don’t take people new to their area of practice that just want to expand their resume. I rarely choose someone who has approached me to speak unless I meet them personally, have seen or heard a demo, and that person has lots of references. I didn’t follow this protocol to the tee my second year in business and the 2-3 programs we held with speakers who had approached me were very disappointing to me. After a couple of bad experiences, I created an official protocol and I do not veer from it.
2) I, personally, work very closely with our speakers to ensure good programs that are well coordinated, organized and have good handouts. We set planning calls and meetings and I remind the speakers over and over what is expected of them, including the judges and justices! I add and cut sub-topics and areas of discussion based on what I know our customers want to hear about and I work with all of our speakers to ensure they deliver on what is promised in our marketing materials.
3) Everyone that speaks for us gets a free copy of our Public Speaking for Attorneys DVD and handouts (except for some public employees that cannot accept gifts) and I encourage each of them to watch the DVD or listen to the CD. Some have told me they have listened to the CD multiple times. I also send out an email with reminder speaking tips to our speakers a little bit before each program.
4) If a program is new, or contains new speakers, I always attend myself to see how it goes and how the speakers do and to decide if I will turn the program into an annual or bi-annual event. I also review all evaluations, after every single program. Sometimes I am surprised in that a speaker may not be an excellent speaker by professional public speaking standards, but they get excellent reviews based on how helpful they are. It’s important for me to see both – the reviews and the person actually speaking – so I can decide if the speaker should be invited back.
5) Customer service is very important to me. I stay involved with my staff; I talk to our customers; I go to 50 – 80% of our programs right now. My staff is authorized to grant scholarships at a certain level and they consult me on every other scholarship request.
6) I give back to the legal community. Pro-bono attorneys can automatically register at a reduced rate on the website. When budgets are super tight like right now, I see an uptick in special requests for additional discounts and I usually grant them. For example, I work directly with the Chicago Bar Association’s pro-bono outreach program to grant full scholarships to attorneys wanting to attend our program. I email the Bar’s contact person, Kelly, and tell her of our upcoming programs so she can send out an email and offer full scholarships. There are multiple pro-bono firms in CA that have a blanket seminar fee arrangement with me that requires no approval by me, just a quick check of our “standing scholarship” book. These are arrangements that have been worked out with attorneys in charge of CLE at specific pro-bono firms, by their request.
I’m a small company, so I don’t have a lot of cash to donate to causes. Granting scholarships is one of the things I can do that makes me feel like I can make a (very) small difference.
Sometimes I get special requests from solo practitioners who are hurting right now and I am happy to grant most of these as well (though my enrollment is down as well – I figure it will all come around in the end).
Another example of giving back actually comes from a government attorney request. A while back we got a request for a scholarship from an attorney stationed in Iraq for our 9th Circuit Boot Camp seminar due to an upcoming case she was handling on behalf of the government. Instead of granting a reduced rate based on her request, we sent the CD and materials free of charge – with our thanks for her serving in Iraq. This request was something that had never happened before, but I felt strongly about it. My best friend from law school (Iowa) served almost eight months in Iraq as a government contract attorney (voluntarily). He used to send me weekly reports about what it was like. I could never be that brave. It was really neat when I got a personal thank you from the attorney/soldier for not charging her. She mentioned that she had circulated the program among the other attorneys at the base, that they had found it helpful and that they appreciated the gesture. Sonya and I were really really moved by her thank you card – neither of us expected it because she had already thanked us via email.
Like I said, it’s one of the few things I can do. As an entrepreneur, I don’t really have time to volunteer and as a small business I don’t really have the funds to give large donations. This scholarship stuff lets me give back to my community in the way that I can. It makes my staff and I feel good and it makes us feel like a part of a community. (And I don’t have to sit through any rubber chicken lunches!).
7) If you look at all of the above you will see a theme, one that shows how Pincus Professional Education is different from most of my competitors: as the owner, I am still very heavily involved in programming and customer service.
Social Media is all the rage, even game changing in the profession. How does this intersect with your CLE and how you reach your customers?
I think it is absolutely fascinating. I almost wish I was still in academia so I could study it from a communication perspective!
I think we are seeing more and more virtual meeting formats. What a virtual meeting actually is will continue to change over time. We’ve gone from simple tele-seminars to webinars to live webcasts of in-person seminars. There are 24 hour virtual meetings (not on my agenda yet).
Peach New Media has this whole “knowledge community” that I am considering using to push the envelope regarding our content delivery options.
All of our ethics/bias/substance abuse programs will be up and running Jan 2010 via Peach New Media. I heard about them via ACLEA and Twitter and now they have all of my online business. By June of 2010 we will have my entire CLE library on the web, available via instantaneous downloads and streaming. I had been procrastinating deciding who to hire to handle this transition until I ran in to them – via Social Media. This opened up a whole new delivery format for me and gave them a nice new client. They are fantastic to work with by the way!
People are twittering during CLE programs just like they do while on Jury Duty. Only this won’t get them kicked out, or off, the jury. There is a debate raging among professional public speakers (non CLE related) regarding the appropriateness of twittering / allowing Twittering and Facebook posts, etc., during a presentation. I fall on the side of “welcome it, use it, incorporate it, fly with it.” You certainly can’t stop it. Have a sense of humor as a speaker and have fun with it.
As you know, I now have a Facebook Fan Page: (Join Tim as one of my Company’s Fans!). I can be followed on twitter (@faithpincus for public speaking tips and @PincusProEd for CLE/Practice tips). I am on LinkedIn (and I invite you all to connect with me). I have a CLE blog and have already started talking with my speakers about guest blogging in the future.
All of these Social Networking formats integrated and cross reference each other. What’s next? I can hardly keep up with it all. I spend at least 5 hours a week on social networking updates and following alone. I fully anticipate that in a year or so one of my staff members will have to take over the Facebook Fan Page and the @PincusProEd Twitter tips. I think I will always hold on to @Faithpincus and my LinkedIn updates personally. But for now it is all me all the time! It’s exhausting. But if you go to my Pincus Professional Education Fan Page on Facebook you can see my dogs!
Seriously, social networking creates connections and conversations with people I may never meet otherwise. It increases my ability to book speakers and get booked as a speaker, and it is a great source for CLE providers to learn and improve themselves (and speakers). I mean, I met you – Tim Baran of uMCLE – through Twitter and here I am doing an interview with you! I have met some of the speakers I book “in-house” at law firms via twitter and linked-in (though I obviously screen them). I am starting to schedule meetings with people I have met via Twitter and LinkedIn, when I travel to their city. A friend of mine, Victoria Pynchon had clients fly all the way from New Zealand to have her mediate their dispute based on her popularity and expertise as a mediation blogger in the mediation community.
I have gotten proposal requests (though no clients yet) for in-house presentations of my Public Speaking for Attorneys program via Linked-In connection referrals. And, as I mentioned in multiple Linked-In group discussions, I am Twittering tips from my speakers during our programs.
I can’t stop laughing when I remember that my first post to Twitter, in December of 2008, went like this: “Sitting here wrapping Christmas presents.” Seriously. Didn’t have a clue what it was about. That one will be a classic some day when I am rich and famous.
There is a fascinating YouTube video on the impact of social networking. I have no affiliation with the video, but if the facts are accurate, it’s pretty astonishing.
How do you navigate the burdensome maze of mandatory CLE rules and regulations?
Since I am only in three states right now, it is not overwhelming, yet. But the inconsistencies are annoying and the process is very time consuming and costly.
And the different fees are astounding. One state charges $6,000 for what CA charges $300. In the $6,000 state, my first and sometimes second seminar profit goes entirely to pay the state’s CLE provider qualification fees, regardless of how many programs I actually hold in their state. And I usually put on less than 6 programs in that state. Seriously? This is not at all business friendly. I constantly debate pulling out and focusing elsewhere, but it costs me close to 20K for each state I expand into (not counting CLE fees), so that would be a lost investment if I pulled out.
I think the CLE boards should focus more on ensuring providers put on quality programs and less on making a buck off of us. All they are doing is increasing the cost of CLE to attorneys in their own state. Audit my programs; don’t charge me a fortune to put them on. Isn’t that their reason for existence – to make sure providers are putting on quality programs? And this whole charging us to input attorneys names and make sure attendees get credit stuff is just ridiculous. It takes a lot of my staff’s time to so this type of reporting after each program. You’re going to charge me for it too? That’s adding insult to injury. Frankly, I think the CA model is the best. If the attorney can’t be trusted to report their CLE accurately, they can’t be trusted to be an honest attorney. This shouldn’t be a CLE provider issue; it’s an attorney ethics issue.
As far as recommendations, I think CLE boards may want to consider giving CLE credit for marketing type courses. More than 50% of my customers are solo, small to mid – sized firm attorneys. The younger ones have to learn how to market themselves and build up business. And the newly solo do as well. Absolutely none of that is taught in law school. The only reason I know how to market is because I ran political and public affairs campaigns for 8 years prior to going back to school. I really feel for the new attorneys straight out of law school. They have never been taught client building / marketing skills. Some large law firms go to the expense of providing this training, but what about the solos? The small to mid-sized firm attorneys?
Marketing is an important part of being an attorney. Seriously – if you don’t have clients, you can’t be an attorney. As a solo that noc clients = bankruptcy. As a large law firm attorney, no clients = being dumped because you don’t have a book of business. CLE boards should take another look at this issue and catch up with the 2010 legal community.
I don’t put on marketing programs so it is not an issue that effect me, but I know that the solos would appreciate getting credit for learning how to build their business and be a successful attorneys – they email me about it all the time.
Sometimes I would love a national protocol, but then I think –who would create the protocol, who would enforce it, and what if they model it after the $6,000 state I mention above? Yikes! Maybe just suggestions from the ABA?
I have been surveying my customers for 5 of my 6 years in this business and 90% of my customers attend based on the topic. 5% attend due to the speaker and 5% attend for the MCLE. Whether or not MCLE is required really doesn’t impact me that much. I am not a low cost provider and I am not a bar association that can afford to keep admission low because their membership fees support them. People attend my programs because they need them and because my programs are good. But the time and costs of getting approval in each state is a barrier to expansion.
I have to admit, as I expand to other states, the thought of going through the process and adapting to each different set of rules is just tiring. I am afraid I will eventually need a part-time staff person just to handle the accreditation stuff. Right now I’m the one who handles it ( I do not delegate this one) and frankly, I don’t really have the time. Would CLE boards prefer I spend time on their forms or that I time ensuring my programs are very good, very organized and that my speakers deliver on what is promised?
I guess that means I should be hiring you Tim! Keep it up – I may get busy enough to do so. You have a brilliant idea here and I love brilliant ideas. Just wish I thought of it.
How has your unique journey that includes running political campaigns informed your current role?
It was a great training ground for doing just about anything else. People say that going to law school is a great training ground for doing almost anything else, but actually running political campaigns tops that and then some! Just ask my friend Tom McMahon. He and I were law school cohorts. He ended up in charge of the DNC under Howard Dean. What fun!
Why do running political campaigns top law school as far as career prep? Well, once I got a little experience as the hands-on/on-site manager of one campaign, I began to manage 4 to 6 campaigns at a time, twice a year (two election cycles), for years. I always worked for political consulting firms that managed multiple campaigns. I got used to juggling a lot of balls, coordinating a lot of events, talking to a lot of people, training a lot of volunteers, hand-holding a lot of politicians’ hands, teaching them public speaking, etc, helping them raise money, etc. I had a ton of fun. Met a lot of people. Wrote a lot of copy. Directed some TV and Radio ads. It was a serious adrenaline rush running campaigns. And it honed my ability to juggle a lot at one time.
It also made me somewhat fearless when it comes to the business world. I will ask anyone to do anything. Of course, I learned a ton about public speaking and persuasion long before getting a Masters in Communication. I learned from some great masters of public speaking and politics and persuasion, including John Davies of Davies! Public Affairs. And you learn a lot by watching people do it wrong.
So I got to see the practical applications of public speaking – good and bad – when running campaigns. Then I got to study the theory of it in my Masters and when I did some Ph.D. work before transferring to law school. It was a great way to do it because I could look at the theory with a critical eye – with the eye of a practitioner. You don’t always get to do that.
In the end, I learned writing, advertising, marketing, public relations and public speaking – all before age 30. And long before I owned this business. I learned everything I needed to get ahead owning my own firm (except accounting and bookkeeping – so I hired people to do that).
You’re passionate about public speaking but as an entrepreneur, how do you handle the business side? Ever find that elusive work/life balance?
I wish. Work/life balance? What’s that? I’m a Type A workaholic. Thanks Dad. Owning my own business just makes me worse.
I take a lot of vacations when during our regular slow months. Since I have a staff, it makes it easier for me as they handle the ongoing admin stuff when I am gone. I use a bookkeeper. I have an accountant. I am not shy about delegating. It’s my preference really. I’m one of those hands-off managers for the most part. Sonya is in my Northern CA office and I am in my So. CA office. We have interns and part-time staff to help out as needed.
I belong to a business growth group: renaissance forum. Ken Keller facilitates may group in Chatsworth, but they are nation-wide and Jim Canfield (the brother of the guy who wrote Chicken Soup for the Soul). I run business issues and ideas by my group on a monthly basis and I meet with our advisor, Ken, on a monthly basis as well. It’s like having a mastermind group and a business coach, only better. Since we pay a small fee to belong, and we have a paid moderator/coach, the moderator/coach takes it very seriously and gives out excellent advice. He keeps things moving along, and we get the national resources, articles, interviews, books and advice provided by the Renaissance Forum. Jim Canfield routinely interviews top entrepreneurs and passes along that business advice information to us. A friend of mine got me involved and I can’t thank her enough.
Plus, I get business advice from 10 – 12 other entrepreneurs – all of whom are successful and several of whom have multi-million dollar gross revenues. For a small business owner like me, having that sort of expertise as an advisory panel is priceless.
Workaholism aside, I have put adding more fun and more balance into my life in 2010 on my priority list. Seriously!! Just give me until March to get the year booked and then I can start horse back riding and creating art again. In the meantime, I have my Cellar Crawl girlfriends and our wine tasting extravaganza dinners to keep my life fun.
When you do find leisure time, what do you do to relax? for fun?
Fun? Relax? Entrepreneurs don’t have fun or relax. Just kidding. Sort of.
I like to travel for pleasure as much as possible, believe it or not. Given that I travel almost every week when I am in my busy season, you would think I would want to stay put, but I don’t. I am in love with Europe, especially France and Italy.
I like to entertain friends and/or coordinate social events out. Living in Los Angeles gives me lots of great restaurant opportunities and I love box seats at the Hollywood Bowl a few times each summer. I also escape into – yes, it’s true – sci-fi/fantasy books when I really need a break. I play with my dogs a lot and sometimes take them sheep herding. It’s fun to watch but I’m not all that excited about being in the ring with the dog and the sheep – been knocked down several times! (Two of my dogs are Australian shepherds).
As you continue to grow and innovate, what can we expect from Faith Pincus and Pincus Professional Education for 2010?
I now book paid professional CLE speakers in-house at law firms, agencies, non-profits. It’s a natural progression, but a small part of the business. I get a ton of requests from law firms and public agencies seeking speakers for their retreats or CLE days. So I now have a Speakers’ Bureau arm of my business that books CLE speakers.
The big news is that I am in the process of offering all of my existing and future content in streaming and instantaneously downloadable formats.
I will also be offering 1 hour highlights/summary CD’s of our more extensive, popular programs – like the “best of” or “highlights” in one-hour bite sized formats.
And I have two fabulous expansion announcements that I’ll be making within the next month.
That, and the rest, well, you’ll have find out by following me on Twitter and Facebook and connecting via LinkedIn!
If there is one piece of advice that you could give to all prospective CLE presenters, what would that be?
Meet your audience’s needs, not your own. It’s all about them, not you! And take the time to do it right. Really. Seriously. Don’t dust off your standard stump speech and try to fit it into every speaking situation or CLE setting. Your audience is there, taking the time to hear you, usually they have paid to hear you, so take the time to tell them something worth their time, even if you are the most famous attorney out there. Your audience is what makes you and what matters – whether you are getting paid to speak or not.
Sorry, I can’t just stop at one piece of advice.
You have a tag “elucidates the way” on your site.
LOL! The “She Who Elucidates The Way” actually came from a staff member when I had a lot more staff (I made the classic mistake of expanding too fast in 2007. I’m much more practical now). My friend and staff member Sandy created titles for all of us when we added a “who are we” section to our websites. That tag line was mine, I can’t remember Sandy’s unfortunately, but it has something to do with her sense of humor. We had one for the intern and for our receptionist, etc. They were all really fun and playful. Of course over time my staff has changed and Sandy has moved on and we haven’t come up with new fun tag lines for our new staff.
It was a bit of egotism to let that tag-line stand, but since my staff came up with it, and liked it, I enjoyed it and still do.
I’m totally excited to have you on uMCLE and after finding out more about you during the research for this, I really look forward to hearing you speak one day.
Thanks for taking the time to do the research Tim. I’m really impressed! Not everyone would do that. And I appreciate your questions and the opportunity. Looking forward to meeting you in Orlando and watching your guaranteed success!
